There is a story about a little boy who was playing outdoors and he found a caterpillar. Then he saw the caterpillar climb up the tree and act strangely and his mother explained that the butterfly was forming a cocoon.
The little boy watched it every day waiting for the butterfly to emerge. And one day it happened a small hole appeared in the cocoon and the Butterfly started to struggle to come out.
At first, the boy was really excited but then he became concerned because the butterfly was struggling so hard to get out and it looked like he couldn't break free. It looked desperate. So the boy was concerned and he wanted to help. So he ran to get scissors and he snipped the cocoon to make the hole bigger and the Butterfly quickly emerged.
But when the butterfly came out the boy was surprised the body was small and the wings were shriveled. And he continued to watch the butterfly expecting that at any moment the wings would dry out enlarge and expand to support the swollen body.
But that didn't happen.
The butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It was never able to fly.
And the boy tried to figure out what had gone wrong.
He went to a local college to see a scientist and he learned that the butterfly was supposed to struggle. In fact, the butterfly struggled to push its way through the tiny opening of the cocoon pushes the fluid out of its body and into its wings without the struggle. The butterfly would never ever fly.
So as you go through life keep in mind that struggling is an important part of any growth because it allows you to develop your wings.
In 2009 Tara Newman and her husband declared bankruptcy. The business Tara’s husband had started had failed. In this episode, Tara tells her powerful story.
Tara now has a business of her own. She is a high-performance leadership coach. After years in the corporate world supporting leaders and high performers, she created a thriving business, coaching high-achieving clients. In this episode, she talks about getting through the bankruptcy, starting her own business and how a high achiever becomes a high performer.
I know that you had many experiences, including overcoming bankruptcy and starting your own business. How did that all come about? How did you fall down and pick yourself up?
In 2005, Tara’s husband decided to start a manufacturing business. It came with significant start-up costs to purchase machinery, materials and build out a manufacturing space.
What kind of business?
Her husband manufactured rotationally molded plastic parts which include things like mannequins and rock climbing holds. Initially, he had success but then the 2008 financial crisis happened and people started sending this kind of work to China. They lost two of their biggest customers. Then in 2009, the bank called in their line of credit. They were given 30 days to repay $100000. Tara’s dad was the 3rd partner in the business and he had put up his commercial property as collateral. They were also getting foreclosure notices on their house.
How were you feeling?
Terrified. Shut down. Catatonic. But she was also grateful for what they were going through because she knew it was going to be the greatest lesson of their life if they survived.
Was there an ‘if you survived’?
Tara felt stuck but she didn’t feel hopeless. She knew there was something on the other side of this.
Tell me about the lowest moment.
It was all low. And then there were moments of hope. The book The Secret had just come out and Tara’s mum told her to read it. She read it and it was the right book for her to read at the time. It helped her frame things more positively. It helped her seek solutions from a positive perspective. She started journaling and they had garage sales every weekend to help pay for groceries.
Getting the foreclosure notices was a moment. She didn’t know how to process everything. She had never felt anything so catastrophic in her life.
What was the turning point?
The turning point when the bank called in the note. They were only keeping that business open to meet that financial obligation to the bank. They had the thought that once they had paid back the credit to the bank they could quit the business. After the note was called in Tara’s Dad liquidated some assets to pay it. When Tara and her husband realized that they couldn’t close the business, pay back her Dad and pay the credit card debt they had, they decided to declare bankruptcy.
Tara is a fighter and she decided that this wasn’t going to define her. Even though when they declared bankruptcy, it felt like a death sentence. Tara had been wanted to start her own business and it no longer felt like that could happen.
When did you declare bankruptcy?
In 2010 they declared bankruptcy. So they are in year 9 of an 11-year term.
In 2010 you declared bankruptcy. For the next year, what did that look like?
There is not a lot of information available on how to overcome bankruptcy. Tara’s husband closed the business and was able to liquidate some of the machines and leftover material. He wasn’t in the right state to get a job. So he used some of that money to buy a trailer and do handyman services for a year while he wrapped up the business and figured out what to do next. He felt like a colossal failure and needed a lot of coaching and support to be able to out there and get a job. With Tara’s support, he was able to find a well-paying job.
Over this time they learned so much about money - how to save and leverage their money. They became minimalists and learned that they didn’t need much. Each time they had a garage sale they had to dig a little deeper to find more stuff that they could get rid of
What were you thinking? What was a thought that was going through your mind?
When you go through something so traumatic, the ability to think and feel shuts down. The way you take in information changes. Tara could be in in the line with a cart full of groceries and two babies as her card is being declined.
What’s going through your mind though? Is it ‘I don’t want to be doing this anymore’?
When Tara’s husband was doing the home improvement work, things weren’t much better. And she told him she was done. He needed to go and get a job because she wasn’t losing the house.
And how did you come back?
For the most part, when they were going through this they were terrible communicators. They didn’t want to voice the reality of the situation and talk about being afraid. Once they started talking about it, the stress started to decrease. Having kids helped because they wanted to give them some sense of normalcy. Tara journaled a lot as a way of communicating with herself
What was your first step to working again?
Tara had been working full time throughout this time, even while helping her husband on the business.
What was one of the biggest lessons you learned?
You can live on a lot less than you think you need. They didn’t realize how little they needed to live on and to thrive.
After declaring bankruptcy, her husbands way back to himself was ironman triathlons. He would train 20 hours a week and threw himself into redefining himself and his success. In 2014 he raced Ironman Lake Placid and stood in the finishing circle. Tara looked at him and felt like she was in the shadow of his success. That’s when she decided she was going to start a business. In August 2015 she left her corporate job. She had started her business and it was doing ok. There was enough to indicate that she’d be able to support herself and bring in money.
Were you scared?
She wasn’t scared because she’d spent 9 months building her business while working full-time. She knew that she had started to build something and that the worst that could happen was that she would have to go back to work. She wanted to put away some money because the first year of business was going to have a lot of ups and downs. Her husband declared they were going to go on austerity and spend nothing. Tara knew she couldn’t go back there and that wasn’t going to work for her. She decided they were going to work on what they needed to thrive. She wrote a whole page of things in her journal. And was shocked to realize that none of them cost money.
What was in there?
To have a cozy blanket to sit on the couch with
Intimate time with her husband
Time spent with her kids
Hugging her kids and telling them how important they are to her
Time to read
That list became the basis on how they spent their time, their money and their energy. It allowed them to save a tonne of money. If something wasn’t on their thrive list they didn’t spend money on it and if it was, they did.
I love this idea of what do I need to thrive.
There some things on the list that were silly. Tara knew she wanted a manicure once a week. That made her feel good about herself. It became a touchpoint for herself. She would look at her nails and think where is your mind at if you can’t spend $20 and 45 minutes to get your nails done.
So what happened? Did you start to feel like you were thriving?
Tara really did. She’s been wanting to leave her job for 10 years but the moment when you get the thing you dreamed about, it can be tricky. She had a few moments. She had the thing that she wanted and now she couldn’t lose the thing. In her worst moments, she knew that she just needed to go back to that list of things and she would be alright.
Tara reflects on the failure of her husbands business and realizes that it was not the fault of the economy. They were in survival mode and couldn’t bring themselves to take the actions they should have taken. They could have hired coaches, employed more people or invested in sales training.
Do you think to have a catastrophic failure gave you confidence and showed you how resilient you are?
Absolutely. The worst thing that can happen to her business is that she goes bankrupt. And she’s been there.
Don’t you think that the fear of the worst that can happen stops a lot of people?
But you’ve seen it so nothing can stop you because you got through that.
Sometimes we can’t formulate beliefs because we don’t have proof. Tara has found it useful to borrow someone else’s proof. That’s why she shares her bankruptcy story. So that other people can borrow it.
You work with a lot of high performers and achievers. Do you think they take it harder?
When you are a high performer or achiever you face more fear than the average person because you are leaning into your growth edge. You are taking on challenges that most people won’t.
I told one of my clients that she was a high performer because she was being really hard on herself and she was achieving. It was the first time that she had heard that identification for herself. Often high performers look at where they’re lacking because they want to achieve even more.
When Tara worked for a corporate company she was running the performance management function. She created the way they measured performance and helped people evaluate and improve their performance. Every employer who was labeled as high potential would rate themselves harder than anyone else. People who were low potential had an inflated sense of their own performance.
How do you inspire bold leadership for high performers?
Most high performers who think of themselves as high performers are high achievers.
Can you share the difference between a high performer and a high achiever?
Tara thinks that being a high performer or a high achiever are both great things to be. But if you can turn a high achiever into a high performer it makes them even better. High achievers are really hard on themselves, try to control the outcome, set really big goals for themselves and don’t chunk things together. They achieve a lot of amazing stuff but struggle to find their wins and burn the candle at both ends in their pursuit of achievement. High performers know that you can’t burn the candle at both ends and that there is an equation to growth. Stress + Rest = Growth. They are as serious about their recovery as they are about their work.
Sometimes I dance between a high achiever and a high performer. When I’m a high performer, I perform better. When I’m in high achiever mode, I’m typically stressed and unhappy and I know I need to shift. So you can oscillate between the two?
Having an awareness of where you are on the spectrum can help you achieve with greater ease. High performers close the majority of their tabs. They know how to focus and have an appreciation for deep work. High achievers spin out quickly and get distracted. It doesn’t mean they aren’t achieving things. But do all those little achievements add up to the thing you want the most? High performers are incredibly discerning. They will slow down before they speed up. Society wants you to be a high achiever. That’s how we’ve been conditioned. It takes a lot to go against that conditioning and do the deep work on yourself to be a high performer. You have to be really bold, have strong beliefs, strong boundaries and have some unwavering and unapologetic ways about you. And you’re going to piss people off. Not everybody is going to like you or agree with you and that requires you to be bold.
How do you think people can shift into a high-performance mindset? What’s a really practical way people can get into the mindset of a high performer?
Tara likes looking at results. Everything is a result but it may not be the result you want. Was the result you got worth that time and effort? It’s important to be really intentional around your actions.
I have recently shifted from achiever to performer. I put a hard stop to social media. Deleted Facebook, stopped scrolling and now there are no more comparisons. I felt like I was losing time and the result was I was beating myself up about what I wasn’t doing compared to other people. If you’d have told me this in achiever mode I’d have known I should quit social media but said I’m not going to do that right now.
Another thing you should be monitoring are your ‘yeah, buts’. Because it’s a sure sign of resistance.
What’s the best advice you’ve ever been given?
“The secret is I care but not that much.”
Tell us how we can get in touch with you
Bold Leadership Podcast: https://www.taranewmancoaching.com/podcast
The Secret by Rhonda Byrne
Rachel Wright is a marriage counselor and licensed psychotherapist. She is recognized as one of the freshest voices on modern and millennial relationships. Referred to as “bridging the gap between a self-help book and a therapist’s couch, she is one half of Wright Wellness Center, where together with her husband Kyle, they are helping people have better sex, relationships, and mental health. They’ve created a healthy, communicative, and passionate relationship by using the very same techniques they teach — Everything we have developed is research-based. She has been featured widely in the media including Cosmopolitan, Women’s Health, PsychologyToday, and dozens of other outlets.
How did you and Kyle meet?
They were both working in restaurants. Rachel had just completed her master's degree and needed a part-time job. She started working at a brand new restaurant as a server and Kyle was part of the training team. Immediately they hated each other. They would frequently argue and she thought he was an arsehole. After the training Ryan would stay in touch by contacting her on Jewish holidays. A year later Rachel joined Kyle and the training team to open the companies 4th restaurant. And they could now stop talking. They connected deeply and realized they had both found their person.
Can you give me a little snapshot of the timeline?
Met and hated each other. A year later reconnected and kissed. 3 weeks later Ryan told her that he loved her. 6 months later they moved in with each other. They were engaged after 2 years and married after 16 months. They have now been married for 2.5 years.
How’s it going?
Phenomenally. People think just have a great relationship that they don’t work on. But after both of them saw their parent’s go for divorce they knew they had to put in the work if they wanted a relationship to last a long time
I had love at first sight with my husband.
What was that like?
We were on a blind date set up by one of his friends. We met at a wine bar and when he walked in there was an energy about him. He was so sweet and I just got that immediately. I hadn’t felt like that before, it was so easy. For me, I felt like I could really be with this person. I kinda just knew. I know that sounds weird but that was my experience.
We all have these judgments around things in our lives, especially when our friends experience things very differently. It strikes us as weird.
And it’s natural to have some uncertainty, right?
A lot of times the uncertainty is about us more so than the other person. For Rachel, she had a lot of uncertainty when she first met Ryan. But what she didn’t consider was the ability for people to change. When she saw him a year later he was not the same person.
So how did you go from training in a restaurant together to having your own relationship company together?
After she completed her Masters, she continued her psychotherapy training by getting her 3000 hours for her license and started her own practice. She had been working towards this for so long and it was amazing. For about 3 months. Her focus was on couples and sex therapy. People would come in with the same issues. Body image, anxiety, their upbringing around sex and communication issues. Couples would come in calling each other names and were not able to decide what they wanted for dinner without arguing. Kyle was still working in restaurants and had worked his way up to a fancy restaurant in San Fransico as the Head Bartender. Rachel found she wasn’t actually doing any therapy and healing people. She was teaching them how to communicate with each other. Although she enjoyed doing that work, it wasn’t what she went to school for. Kyle thought she should create an informational package about how to talk to your partner. As she worked on it Rachel realized that Kyle had an ability to take her technical knowledge and put it into layman's terms.
She sent the packet out to prospective clients and then realized that her clients stopped coming in. They no longer needed to come in for therapy. The law in California was so strict that she wasn’t able to sell the packet. They decided to create something online to provide this information to people. They realized there is nothing between self-help books and going to therapy. Rachel knew that Ryan was an important part of this idea because he could take the complicated things Rachel explained in a way people understood. Rachel wanted to go into business with Ryan but he was reluctant because he had these narratives about how he was in restaurants and hadn’t been good at school. In 2015, they started their business. They weren’t even married yet.
I love how organic it was.
They had the business idea long before they thought about starting a business. Rachel didn’t even see her private practice as a business.
When did you shift into that business mentality? I know that can be difficult for some service practitioners.
She will approach things as a clinician and not as an entrepreneur. She will look at the decision from the point of view as both a clinician and as a business person. She thinks there should be more business training in therapist training.
Does Kyle have a degree or certification?
Rachel jokes that he has an honorary degree because he now has enough knowledge to pass the licensing exam. Fiends and family wonder what Kyle does in the business because he doesn’t have that piece of paper.
We all learn differently and it’s important to respect that.
When Kyle is passionate about something he learns it quickly. But at school, he didn’t want to study things that didn’t mean anything to him. When they started the business, Kyle definitely felt some imposter syndrome.
When did you start therapy? What was the reason?
Rachel started therapy when she was 14 after her mum read her diary. She thought Rachel was hiding things and after reading the diary discovered that Rachel had smoke marijuana and slept with her boyfriend. Rachel was sent to therapy. She was pissed. However, after her first session in therapy, she knew she wanted to be a therapist.
What about it had you feeling that way?
She had never felt more seen, heard and understood. Her therapist matched her cursing and agreed that the way she ended up at therapy was not right. She helped Rachel understand her parent’s motivation and that they cared.
So what happened?
She left and told her parents that she had done nothing wrong but would keep going because she really liked it. She saw her therapist throughout high school and on and off during college. And now they are colleagues.
How long were you in therapy for?
Weekly, for about 3 years.
What was the biggest thing you got out of that experience?
She learned that she was a people pleaser and that if she ever wanted to have a healthy relationship with both herself and a partner, she was going to have to navigate anger and conflict.
It such a big part of the human experience. We’re going to experience conflict if we’re going to express ourselves. How to manage that skilfully is so important and we are often not taught how to do that. We reap so many rewards when we work through conflict.
One of the biggest misconceptions around conflict is that it’s bad. In relationships, whether it’s friends family or lovers, conflict is what helps us grow and get closer. If we don’t have conflict, that means that we don’t care because we’re not speaking our truth. We don’t get taught how to communicate and handle conflict but we also don’t get taught how to identify our feelings.
How would you recommend someone who is experiencing conflict, in any relationship, be it intimate, at work, with family members, navigate the situation?
Conflict is often due to different beliefs, values, opinions, and priorities. We need to listen to understand instead of listening to respond. In our culture, we are trained to listen to respond because if we don’t respond immediately we can be mocked for it.
We’re not taught how to listen.
Listening is half of communication. Relationship researchers John and Julie Gottman have this term ‘share meaning’. Which means do you share the meaning your partner assigns to things. Do you share the same meaning about what a home means, what money means, what communication means? We have to get on the same page about what things mean in our lives.
I heard John Walker speak at his Launch Con, a few years ago. And he said - “All problems boil down to a problem in communication.” What do you think?
She agrees that most problems come down to communication and that we’re all afraid to ask for what we need. When Rachel was a teenager, her people-pleasing came from a fear of asking for what she needed because she didn’t want to be judged and she didn’t want to cause anybody discomfort. We have to ask for what we need because nobody is a mindreader.
What is a practical strategy that you use for communication?
Rachel and Kyle have scripts that they give out for different situations. You pick out a feeling and put it into a script. The scripts all follow the same process which is based on the acronym AEO which stands for Acknowledge, Explain, Offer.
Acknowledge means just acknowledging what’s going on and bringing words to the elephant in the room.
Explain is an I statement. We have to explain how we’re feeling and why. “I get angry when you don’t wash the dishes after you eat.”
Offer is what is your proposed solution to this. “Hey, I know that last time we talked about this it kinda got out of hand. I don’t want that to happen this time. I feel angry when you don’t wash your dishes after you eat lunch. What I would like for you to do is either wash them or just soak them and leave them in the sink. How does that feel to you?”
We’re often not taught these ways of communicating. It really takes mindful attention and practice. Sometimes we might be sloppy and come out with an accusation because we haven’t practiced this.
It’s a muscle. This is where self-compassion comes in. We’re going to make mistakes and you can’t shame yourself for things you don’t know. It’s important to try this when you’re not in a reactive state. You can practice with things that are silly to get used to the flow of the formula.
What is the question that you ask yourself often?
How do I want to feel?
What is the best advice you’ve ever been given?
Follow what makes you feel good.
If you can replace should with want, it’s a game changer.
Where can we get in touch with you:
The Gottman Institute
Amy E. Smith spent years finding her voice — Buried under other people’s thoughts and opinions and notions about who she should and shouldn’t be. She was motivated by two primary things: Guilt and Fear. Can you relate? Fear of not fitting in, of rocking the boat, of speaking her truth and losing relationships. And Guilt around following her intuition.. but not anymore - she learned how to stand up for herself! It’s time to stop caring so much about what everyone else thinks! Now she helps people radically shift people-pleasing behavior and find your voice. She is a confidence coach and self-love expert. She helps people access self-worth so they can live joyful lives. In this episode, we talk about the many facets of people pleasing, how she worked on her relationship with her mother — and went from feeling angry to communicating her needs with kindness.
In this episode, Amy Smith starts by discussing why people pleasing tends to be a female quality. Looking at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, one basic human need is a sense of belonging. Back in the day, that meant belonging to a tribe. Nowadays, subconsciously our instincts are to make people like us. Most people love the people pleasing versions of us because that means they are getting their way. Then, Amy reveals details about her relationship with her parents and why her mother felt she had failed as a parent. She learned that her mom’s truth did not need to be her truth.
Making up catastrophized ideas about what something means is what happens when we experience an uncomfortable emotion. One of the biggest things that hold us back is what other people think. Amy says to allow yourself the understanding that you are allowed to be attached to these people, but you are not responsible for these people. It is irrational to think that you will not care what your partner thinks; however, it is not going to be the final say in our decision-making process.
Amy discusses emotional intelligence and the ability to understand our feelings. Most of the time when we feel uncomfortable, we collapse a story. Instead, we should pay attention to these feelings and dig underneath it. Amy has a seven-step process to follow when engaging in uncomfortable conversations. What you have to determine first is if the conversation is not up for negotiation or if the conversation is up for a collaborative effort. Amy reveals the rest of her conversation tips including how to soften your start-up, being quantifiable, and watching the tone.
Nicho Plowman who is the co-owner of Insight Timer the number one free meditation app. It's the most popular meditation app in the world has the largest network of meditators which is 7 million. There's 3000 teachers and 6000 groups. Nico is also the co-founder of Edmund and Amelia, a retreat company and he is a Vedic meditation teacher. He brings an intimate and inspired approach to working with individuals and small groups who are committed to creating lasting positive change and contributing to the greater good. He has over 20 years of experience in both the corporate and startup sectors.
How did you get started with meditation?
Fifteen years ago Nicho started exploring different things. He was in the midst of building a company and he wasn’t living a very healthy lifestyle. He found some peace by going on meditation retreats but when he returned to his busy life he found it difficult to continue with it. 7 years ago he learned Vedic meditation which is a 20min, twice daily, mantra-based meditation. After 12 months he decided to move out of the industry he was in to teach Vedic meditation.
How did you stumble upon Vedic meditation? There’s so many different types of meditation.
Nicho tried lots of different types of meditation. A friend suggested he try Vedic meditation, so he did. He found that it was the method that resonated with him the most.
A lot of people can resonate with dabbling with meditation but it sounds like you then took a deep dive. Was there a tipping point for you, where it was enough or was it because you were exposed to a type of meditation which really resonated with you?
Nicho wasn’t happy with his life and he feels that the meditation practice was long overdue. Vedic meditation came along at the right time for him. He finds the simplicity and practicality of the practice really attractive. It is doable to find 20mins to practice every day, even if you are busy.
You’re married, you had 2 daughters and you were running a business. To become a meditation teacher is a big change. Where does the money piece fit in?
Nicho sold the business he had been building which gave him a bit of breathing room to transition into teaching. He was able to build up some momentum in teaching quite quickly. He realized that some teachers had difficulty finding students. He realized that there was a place for a platform for meditation teachers and with his brother purchased an app called Insight Timer.
Sometimes we think that when we switch gears, we leave the experience we have had behind, but there can be overlap between our previous experience and who we are now.
When Nicho and his brother bought Insight Timer they had the skills and experience to move very quickly with improving the app and making into what they envisioned. He wanted an easier way for teachers to connect with students and be able to take the step to be a full-time teacher.
When they bought the app they were only 5-10 teacher on there, many of whom were well known. They believed that you didn’t need to have been teaching for a long time to have value in the mediation world. It gives anybody who has something to say, an opportunity to get out there. Then the audience can decide if they get value from it.
Have you ever worried about quality control? Or since there is instant audience feedback, do you not have to worry about that?
They are very mindful of quality. There are over 15000 guided meditations and more waiting to be published. They do quality control over audio quality but the content is rated by their audience.
How do you think you grew so quickly? Was it word of mouth?
They don’t advertise and so it has all been word of mouth. They now have over 7 million mediators. So far it has felt right that all their users have come through word of mouth.
I have a couple of different mediation apps on my phone and Insight Timer is my favorite one because it’s so easy to use.
Nicho does worry that the amount of content and features can complicate the app. They have worked hard to make sure that it is easy to use, despite the amount of features.
What’s your experience with being more deeply involved in meditation as a teacher? How has your experience with your own mind changed? Do you find the quality of your thoughts to be different?
Nicho has noticed how he responds to things change, such as food, friends, family, the content we consume. He notices that when he meditates he releases stress and fatigue. He finds he bounces back from stress easier. As we meditate more our bodies release stress and fatigue which help us deal with stress better.
In a stressful situation, we don’t have to react. We do have some control in that.
Stress is a physical response that can be a survival tool. But sometimes it feels like that fight or flight stress response is there the whole time. Which is an unpleasant place to be. Meditation can allow you to engage in the world in a way which is not overwhelming.
Meditation can be a really useful tool. I know it’s helped me tremendously.
There’s a lot of people experiencing deep pain and it feels like the noise is ramping up in the world. But there is also an increase in meditation apps, meditation spaces and yoga studios. Something to counterbalance all the noise.
There’s a lot of misconception about meditation, especially for beginners. A lot of people will say ‘I tried to meditate and I’m not good at it’ or ‘it’s really hard for me to sit still’. What’s your answer to those types of objections.
Often people may not have come across the tight practice for them. There’s a misconception that when people meditate their minds should be free of thoughts and if you can’t do that then you’re not a good meditator. Meditation is a practice that should be effortless and it may take exploring different styles of meditation to find that. There’s a danger that when people find a practice that works for them, they find after a while they feel better and so stop meditating. Then 6 months later they’ll back to where they were.
What’s your vision with Insight Timer?
They want to continue to provide people with these tools and resources. Nicho recognizes that Insight Timer is its own entity. But they want to have 100 million meditators because that will lead to a more conscious planet.
What’s a question that you continuously ask yourself?
Nicho hopes that in 20 or 30 years time he can see that his efforts went towards positive change.
Tell us how we can download the app and get in touch with you.
Insight Timer: https://insighttimer.com
Nicho Plowman: https://www.nichoplowman.com/
Edmund and Amelia